For example, a passage in Matthew has Jesus saying, “Thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church.” This might allude to Matthew being a Roman Catholic Gospel, written after the beginning of the establishment of this hierarchy to uphold the supremacy of the Petrine Church of Rome. 225 Nouveau Testament: OpenText.org (web-based initiative to provide an annotated corpus of Greek texts and tools for their analysis): Westcott & Hort Resource Centre: Decker (Rodney J. It seems that the challenge posed by Marcion and other dissident groups caused the early Christians to determine which books were scriptural and which were not. It would be wonderful if the debate was between “Orthodox” Christianity, and actual “rational” atheists, but this is not to be. L’écriture du nouveau testament a donc commencé du … Au cours du 1er siècle de notre ère, les premiers chrétiens ont donc constitué, à la suite des Ecritures de l'alliance et inspirés par elles, un ''Nouveau'' Testament. Interesting article and discussion. Why doesn’t Justin actually QUOTE the Gospels like he does with other books in the Bible? Le Nouveau Testament (en grec ancien : Ἡ Καινὴ Διαθήκη / Hê Kainề Diathếkê) est l'ensemble des écrits relatifs à la vie de Jésus et à l'enseignement de ses premiers disciples qui ont été reconnus comme « canoniques » par les autorités chrétiennes au terme d'un processus de plusieurs siècles. J’ai lu l’ancien, nouveau testament et coran. Enter your email address to subscribe to this blog and receive notifications of new posts by email. Ça serait une mauvaise excuse, peu importe ce que nous décidons. What’s exactly nefarious about this idea? How can we know? Your email address will not be published. Ces fragments ne ma… La bible je le dis et redis et repete a ete et est un instrument politique et religieux mis sur pied pour dominer les humains cest un outil de manipulation et de conspiration…je le dis et je le redis encore Dieu en effet existe j’ai foi en ce Dieu là,qui créa la nature le ciel et la terre le jour et la nuit les saisons mais votre Dieu des hommes cest a dire de vos religions je ny crois pas.S’il faille qu’un jour croire à une religion je croirai a une religion on est tous egaux et freres ou le spirituel ne se melangera pas au materiel où les lois de l’amour et du libre arbitre seront respectés par tous!merci! The idea that Constantine co-opted Christianity for his own nefarious political reasons is nonsense. : Hildebrandt (Theodore), New Testament eSources. Ok, but what about what Christian scholar Dr. Dowdwell says? Ensuite, nous pouvons évaluer les diverses interprétations contre la Bible et de les juger. Perhaps whoever is responsible for posting this meme to the “Philosophical Atheism” group was living under a rock at the time, but it was one of the claims peddled by Dan Brown as historical that attracted criticism not just from Christians but also from scholars generally. Les éditions modernes du Nouveau Testament que nous possédons proviennent de copies de la Bible faites à l’époque de Constantin, donc datant de l’époque de ces personnes qui ont mis leur sécurité en péril afin de préserver la nouvelle alliance du Seigneur. Comme nous l’avons vu dans l’article sur la fiabilité de la Bible, il y a beaucoup de manuscrits aujourd’hui qui viennent de jusqu’à deux cents ans avant l’époque de Constantin (et le Concile de Nicée). It seems the status of the Trullan Council or Quinisext Council was debated in the west and that, overall, it was not regarded as a true "Ecumenical Council" and therefore not binding on Christendom overall. It only betrays a very modern obsession with TRVTH, totally atypical for Antiquity. So the gloriously stupid (and grammatically bizarre) pastiche of nonsense above was posted to “Philosophical Atheism” yesterday, with the group’s followers reverently genuflecting to its mighty historical truth and insight. There is also reference to a passage known only from gMark. Marcion was born around 100 AD in the city of Sinope on the southern coast of the Black Sea. Only gJohn is possibly early second century. “gain support, stabilise the Empire, harness popularity” It isn’t. Lettres et discours, Paris, Les Belles Lettres, 2010, 306 p. L ; 3 À cet égard, la publication récente d’une quarantaine de lettres et de trois discours de Constantin le Grand par Pierre Maraval3 ouvre de nouvelles perspectives. Sorry, but the "hijacking" idea is seriously bad history, largely because it confuses ultimate outcomes with intent. Just adding my 2c to say I can't wait for the book. So what if Constantine has cynical purposes? This was particularly the case in times of stress, so the idea that he saw something that he took as a vision and a sign from a particular god before a battle he probably didn't expect to win makes much more sense that the idea that he simply made the whole thing up for cynical purposes. Je ne sais pas d’où est-ce que vous avez sorti ces informations et ce faux schéma de la bible moderne qu’on tient à faire croire aux gens, mais c’est archifaux ! At least until around the 4th century it was a mixture of doctrines and beliefs, it wasn’t until the more literal interpreters of Christianity got in bed with the Roman state in 312 A.D that they were able to impose conformity. You just don’t know the material well enough to avoid basic errors like this one. Also, given the growing popularity of the various Jesus cults, what other options were realistic? The questions whether the guy(s) did a good job and which standard we use seem far more relevant to atheist me. Those who doubt he saw some kind of vision and must have been lying also don't seem to realise that people in the ancient world were constantly on the lookout for signs and omens and so "saw" all kinds of things that they invested with divine significance. …. J.-C. La copie originale n’est toutefois pas conservée indéfiniment : elle doit donc être recopiée avant qu’elle ne se détériore ou ne soit perdue ou détruite (1re copie). “And I take it that since you didn’t respond directly to my theory about Luke being written in the 2nd century that you either agree with it or think it’s too stupid to even address?”. Ok, but would you at least agree that Christianity did not start out as just one set of beliefs, but many competing ones? … Again – what’s the problem, besides christianity not delivering any of them when it became state religion? How's the book going? Arius et Athanase ne sont pas en désaccord sur ce que les documents scripturaires déclarent, et ils ne sont aucunement en désaccord sur les documents qui doivent être « dans » la Bible. Your email address will not be published. Ok, so I’ve done a little bit more research since our last chat and I found this quote “The very names of the Evangelists, Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, are never mentioned by him [Justin]—do not occur once in all his writings.”. Entrez votre adresse email pour vous abonner à ce blog et recevoir les notifications des nouveaux articles par courriel. In the latter half of the 2nd century then, between Justin and Papias, and the time of Theophilus and Irenaeus, the four Gospels could have been written or compiled, correct? Novum Testamentum Graece Nouveau Testament Novum Testamentum Graece AKA The Greek New Testament Novum Testamentum Graece is the Nestle Aland standard edition of the New Testament in Greek with cross references to many different codex and papyrus "witnesses" for every verse, phrase or word, where those differ between texts. Les écrits d’Athanase sont également conservés. The first is a fifth century reference by Jerome in his Prologue to Judith where he notes the Old Testament book of Judith was “found by the Nicene Council to have been counted among the number of the Sacred Scriptures”, which they try to argue means the Council did have some kind of discussion on the make up of the canon. La vérité sera surprenante mais vous verrez la preuve irréfutable que la Bible qu’on lit aujourd’hui a été modifié. constastin il très intelligent en philosophie. C’est dommage que cette belle recette soit perdue de nos jours. The statement of the Council on this matter formed the Nicene Creed which became the basis of future Christological formulations (and the subject of later disputes on the matter). Le simple mot “là” remplace par “Lui” toute une philosophie. Whether he also knew gJohn is much debated and this remains uncertain. Puisque les livres de la Bible n’ont pas été inventés, modifiés ou endommagés par Constantin, nous pouvons les utiliser pour obtenir une vue de Jésus et de son Évangile qui est présent depuis que ses disciples s’en allèrent proclamer son message. Constantin a eu un impact énorme sur le développement du christianisme. There were plenty of Pre-Nicene references to Jesus being Divine, and even already debate about “Modalism”. Il se peut qu’on décide, pour une multitude de raisons, de ne pas croire ou accepter l’Évangile. Exactly which “sacred Scriptures” is not specified, so it’s unknown if this refers to the Old Testament, some canon of the New Testament or both. Le fait est d'importance : plus un manuscrit est ancien, plus il est proche de l'original. L’empereur Néron a commencé cette tendance en 64 après JC , quand il a pris des disciples de l’Évangile du premier siècle, les a attaché et fait plongé dans de l’huile pour ensuite être brûlés vivant comme des torches humaines pour l’éclairage dans son jardin du palais! Interestingly, the utterances of ecumenical councils like Nicea, are also called "canon's." Justin Martyr, the most eminent of the early Fathers, wrote about the middle of the second century. One of the most beloved presidents of the USA, FDR, lied about his intentions regarding WW-2. Power corrupts and tends to draw people in who want the power without the ideology, and that is certainly true (I believe) of christianity through 17 centuries of "Christendom", but also true of socialism (e.g. Very rare indeed. “….. actually agree with Irenaeus ” Unfortunately Jerome is simply noting that Judith was considered scriptural in that it was referred to in the deliberations of the Council. a tinfoil hatter …. Est-ce vrai? Les textes de la bibliothèque de Nag Hammadi sont souvent considérés séparément mais l'édition actuelle de Schneemelcher contient également onze textes de Nag Hammadi. je veux votre adresse electronique puisque je vous avez exigé la mienne. How the Biblical Canon Actually Developed None of the accounts of the Council from the time give so much as a hint about any such event, so Voltaire was clearly working from much later sources. Au cours des 2e et 3e siècles, sous l'influence des pères de l'Eglise (surtout Irénée, Tertullien, Origène et Cyprlen), la liste des livres inspires du I’m not as concerned by claims about Nicea and the Canon as I am by claims that the Trinity doctrine flat out didn’t exist before. I tend to agree with the Constantine hijacking idea, not necessarily as his deliberate intention, but simply because christianity, like any ideology, is safer when not allied with political power. Ignatius of Antioch quotes from gMatt, gLuke and Acts and he died c. 110 AD. 11 also produces mud. Difficile de résumer tout ça en 3 phrases, surtout que j’ai déjà fait de très longs commentaires, notamment sur la théologie du péché. “how you can know for sure that the memoirs he mentions are actually referring to Matthew, Mark, Luke and John because, as you said in your article, there were so many different works floating around at the time that called themselves Gospels”. Avant son règne, la plupart des empereurs romains étaient ouvertement hostiles à l’Évangile. Est-ce que Constantin a corrompu l’Évangile et la Bible? And Polycarp of Smyrna quotes from all three of the synoptic gospels and he died c. 155 AD. a pseudo-atheist shill for Christian triumphalism [and] delusionally insane.”, – Dr. Richard Carrier PhD, unemployed blogger, Truth and Fiction in The Da Vinci Code: A Historian Reveals What We Really Know about Jesus, Mary Magdalene, and Constantine, Did Emperor Constantine Create the Canon? And it also seems that recent works, whether they were “heretical” (like the Gnostic gospels) or not (like The Shepherd of Hermas), did not have the status of works from the earliest years of Christianity. When I rejected Christianity, I’d never even heard of Mythicism, let alone the absurd theory that Constantine invented the whole story and retconned it into history.
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